Raids Hard Mode Suggestion

[metal justin 36]

Hey guys! Today I wanted to talk a little bit about raids. 
Especially within the GM community, the interest in raids overall has dropped quite a bit from what it was. It's just not a challenge anymore what so ever, and it can get stale VERY quickly. Today I wanted to suggest a hard mode option, how it will work, what effect it'll have on raids and some other raid related things that can be added.

- The hard mode
When opening the raids interface, there will now be a check box to trigger "hard mode". These can ONLY be applied to master in grandmaster raids, to ensure that hard mode is actually hard and time consuming, and having this for normal -> experts would kind of defeat the purpose. Ofcourse none of this has the intention of flooding items in to the game or anything crazy like that, so please continue reading before you make conclusions.

- How does it work?
Hard mode will add multiple things to the raids to make them harder. Let's go over the things.
1.    When on hard mode, overall defense from monsters inside the raid will be boosted by another 25%.
2.    Monsters inside the hard mode raid will see a 15% increase in their hit points (scaling with amount of players in the raid of course)
3.    Bosses will see new unique special attacks or requirements to kill them.
4.    Protection prayers will no longer FULLY block incoming damage, rather lowering it to a 80% soak, leaving you with 20% of the damage taken.

Edit #5: Perhaps it'd be interesting to also buff damage on some bosses. This would mean you have to use both protection prayers AND soulsplit in more rooms, really upping the difficulty some!

-    Vanguards: The melee vanguard will now have a special attack that targets all the players in their spot to be drawn towards the vanguard while disabling their prayers. This should make them a lot less AFKable on its own.
-    Tekton: When on hard mode tekton will have a “rock hard shield” meaning; the first 50% of tekton damage can only be done through pickaxe damage. (After the rocks are mined other weapons can be used once more)
-    Vasa: Vasa will now have a special stomp attack that randomly drops big rocks within the room. This will be indicated by a shadow on the floor (showing where it drops). These hit a lot harder than it’s normal attack and cannot be prayed against
-    Vespula: Vespula will now have an ability to spin a circle and spawn 5 minions (the same once that spawn from the portal). However, these minions have a different color to indicate it’s spawn, with slightly increased HP (about 100 per minion), and they use all 3 styles at random (melee/range/mage)
-    Muttadile: This little shit is bad enough as it is.
-    Olm: Of course we cannot forget the mighty olmlet. He will now gain a new poison effect, targeting a random player. This will work similar to osrs where you start to “drip poison” and if you stand to long on the pool, the damage will increase. In order to avoid it you have to walk around until the effect goes away for 15 seconds. Other players standing on your pool will also be affected.

-  Benefits of hard mode?

Obviously no one wants to go through all this trouble for nothing, and thus the rewards should be scaled accordingly. 
There are a few new things entering the game with this update.
1.    Muttadile pet. 25% damage boost in its respective room and another effect. I’d rather have someone come up with pet effects as this isn’t my forte.
2.    Vanguard pet. 25% damage boost in its respective room. Other pet effect should be something implementing all 3 styles, either in defense or offense, to mimic the way vanguards work.
3.    Metamorphic dust. https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Metamorphic_dust
4.    Raid’s “egg”.

The pets can be gained either through their boss at a low drop rate (muttadile 1:2500, vanguards 1:4000) or from the new raid’s egg. I figured it’d be better to have these 2 pets outside the relic of xerics in order to add another benefit to hard mode. However, if voted against, it’d be alright to just add them to the relic instead to increase its value.

Metamorphic dust:

On OSRS this dust can be used to give your pets a metamorphose to other pets. On Spawnpk it will do a similar thing but of course slightly different.
The dust will work as a combination item. You must have 2 raid pets and a dust to in order to then combine the pets, changing its name to “dusted olm/vespula/etc”. When hovering over the pet and holding ctrl, or examining it, will display what pets are combined. You can add any raid pet to the dusted pet, with another piece of dust. The chance for a dust drop would be around 1/10 on a Hard mode Grand Master raid. 

When a pet becomes dusted it will receive a 10% damage increase in their respective rooms. The pets DO NOT FUSE, rather they will now work like an enchanted Yoshi, allowing you to “change” the pet. It’ll basically mean you will be able to carry multiple pets in 1 inventory slot, with a slight increase in power inside the raids. When the pet is on the ground or in your inventory it’ll have a right click “metamorphose” option, cycling through your bound pets in the order they were originally added. Once combined it becomes untradable, however it can be unbound as well. When unbounding multiple pets you will only receive 50% of the dust, rounded down. So unbinding 2 combined pets will give you 0 dust back, as it only cost you 1. The dust itself is also tradable.

-  Other loots

Other loot tables will also be increased while on hard mode, but not by too much. Since grand master’s already have such a high drop rate on rares especially, having hard mode on will increase chances of a rare by 12.5% (or 1/8th). The common loot tables however will now have +2 rolls pet slot. (75 blood money at a grandmaster slot will be 125 blood money on a hard mode slot). The same goes for master raids.

Additionally I'd like to see an untradable "flex item" from olm that can only be gained on hardmode. It would drop to a random player in the room, and if said player already has this item it'd go to the next. I honestly feel like it'd just be nice to see some unique, untradable items in the game that players have to work towards to unlock themselves, rather than just buying them. Similiar to how OSRS pets are. This could be a cosmetic mask, cape or anything as long as it shows off "i grinded hardmode raids for this" in some way. (bout 1/50 drop from olm itself but it rolls only once, no matter how many players in the room)
 

Anyway that's all I could come up with for now. I had 2 big reasons for making this post

1. Raids get's too boring as it is, there is no challenge and everyone can basically do it at this point.
2. Make raids far less "afk easy profits". This could be invoked more by lowering drop rates on master/grandmaster raids and increasing it more on hard mode.

(F.E currently let's say its 1:8 for a grandmaster raid. Instead make that 1/15 while on hardmode it becomes 1/5. Not actual numbers, just an example.)

 

One last issue I have with raids as it is, is the unbalancing between Solo raids and 5 man raids. 
In my opinion (taking grandmaster as an example here) I believe where a solo should be around 25 minutes a 5 man might be 20 minutes. The way it is now is that solos can take up to 30-45 minutes, while a 5 man team clears grandmasters in around 10 minutes. This makes soloing a complete waste of time by default. I'd rather see 5 men raids taking a bit longer while lowering the time for a solo raid. 
- Lower the HP on solo raids, but increase the amount of HP gained per player in raid.

 

That's it. Let me know what you think

Edited October 29, 2019 by metal justin

[purelaz61 14]

Yo raimon good shit dude this make it more intresting + for the streams way more entertaiment then regular GM but LETS FORGET ABOUT THE (INCREASE AMOUNT OF HP GAINED PER PLAYER IN RAID) thank you   20min GM is long enough for 5 man dont want ryan make a mistake and makes it til 30-40 min for 5 man o.o

 

[metal justin 36]

Just now, purelaz61 said:

Yo raimon good shit dude this make it more intresting + for the streams way more entertaiment then regular GM but LETS FORGET ABOUT THE (INCREASE AMOUNT OF HP GAINED PER PLAYER IN RAID) thank you   20min GM is long enough for 5 man dont want ryan make a mistake and makes it til 30-40 min for 5 man o.o

 

Haha. Like I said I just hope it comes closer together. I think you can agree that 10 minute grandmasters are a bit ridiculous as well right? If it were 15 minute in a FULL MAX team (5 man with full crestbearer, blood scythes, the whole shabang) then I think that'd be okay. Anything below that (2 with max 3 with lower) should be around 20 min, around the same time a solo should take you. It should overall be more time consuming to have that many players in a raid, due to how many more drops you'll see. 

(obviously we GM's always do FFA's, but imagine the stable money/h if we were to run 5 man splits)

[purelaz61 14]

true true was it 10min? i thought around 15min yeah idk how good creast is atm if its really OP then your right and  blood sythe yeah no one has 3-4t for that shit just for a raid

 

1 minute ago, metal justin said:

Haha. Like I said I just hope it comes closer together. I think you can agree that 10 minute grandmasters are a bit ridiculous as well right? If it were 15 minute in a FULL MAX team (5 man with full crestbearer, blood scythes, the whole shabang) then I think that'd be okay. Anything below that (2 with max 3 with lower) should be around 20 min, around the same time a solo should take you. It should overall be more time consuming to have that many players in a raid, due to how many more drops you'll see. 

(obviously we GM's always do FFA's, but imagine the stable money/h if we were to run 5 man splits)

 

[Racc2 24]

Big +1

Solid suggestion, would majorly improve gameplay, love the idea of the new pets  Might think of some potential pet effects and post em here but I also invite the rest of the community to bring their inspired idea's to the table  Also love how nice and in detail this suggestion is, really well thought out and many aspects such as impact to eco already considered

I do have 2 remarks and a quick question:
(a) "When a pet becomes dusted it will receive a 10% damage increase in their respective rooms." This will add to the already existing dmg boost correct? (I know it seems obvious cause otherwise it would be a nerf to a tek pet but just wanted make sure 😛 )

(b) I personally love the idea of this flex-item, though it might be nice if it actually gave like a small bonus just in raids or something, idk a +1 increase in max hit cap during raid or something, just the first thing that pops in my head so probs better suggestions around but you get the idea  

(c) While I do think due to the hard-versions should be more rewarding than their regular counterparts, I strongly advice any alterations to current raid rewards be properly tested and calculated as the last 3 or 4 updates to raids have seen major reactions in community (though two of the 4 were good reactions but regardless). I personally would suggest adjusting them only a little if at all (given they been in eco for months now so have stabilized in this eco) but can't say I would be a fan of a 50% drop in dropchance as I feel this is too drastic of a change.

Also +1 re-balancing solo vs multi raids, solo's are completely not worth these days.

Racc2 out,

Mic drop

 

[Racc2 24]

Oh and forgot one fairly important comment:

Quote

Vasa: Vasa will now have a special stomp attack that randomly drops big rocks within the room. This will be indicated by a shadow on the floor (showing where it drops). These hit a lot harder than it’s normal attack and cannot be prayed against

Good idea, solid content, but from a practical point of view, especially in spk, this could be so tricky with any amount of lag, either it should hit like 40-50 at most so it never 1hit k0's or you'dd have to see it coming a fair time in advance. I cannot tell you how many times I have been k0's at vork cause of the combo lag+his fireball, Please o please do not let me feel that frustration in raids

[metal justin 36]

3 minutes ago, Racc2 said:

Big +1

Solid suggestion, would majorly improve gameplay, love the idea of the new pets  Might think of some potential pet effects and post em here but I also invite the rest of the community to bring their inspired idea's to the table  Also love how nice and in detail this suggestion is, really well thought out and many aspects such as impact to eco already considered

I do have 2 remarks and a quick question:
(a) "When a pet becomes dusted it will receive a 10% damage increase in their respective rooms." This will add to the already existing dmg boost correct? (I know it seems obvious cause otherwise it would be a nerf to a tek pet but just wanted make sure 😛 )

(b) I personally love the idea of this flex-item, though it might be nice if it actually gave like a small bonus just in raids or something, idk a +1 increase in max hit cap during raid or something, just the first thing that pops in my head so probs better suggestions around but you get the idea  

(c) While I do think due to the hard-versions should be more rewarding than their regular counterparts, I strongly advice any alterations to current raid rewards be properly tested and calculated as the last 3 or 4 updates to raids have seen major reactions in community (though two of the 4 were good reactions but regardless). I personally would suggest adjusting them only a little if at all (given they been in eco for months now so have stabilized in this eco) but can't say I would be a fan of a 50% drop in dropchance as I feel this is too drastic of a change.

Also +1 re-balancing solo vs multi raids, solo's are completely not worth these days.

Racc2 out,

Mic drop

 

a) of course haha. 35% total in it's respective room

b) I would LOVE if it had a benefit of some sort, but i know how against some people are to those ideas. So for now I wanted to suggest it purely cosmetic in order to please the "BUT SPK IS A PVP GAME" players.

c) I'd very much like it that, if this comes to fruitation that @Ryan would have a talk over it with some big raid players like myself but also @huntir @Fantasy @ghost twin @Lazzed @Terps to name a few Grand Master raiders. This way we could ensure a more detailed pathing for the reward system in which we could please as many players as possible. 

The idea is not to nerf or buff anything, but to simply rebalance it from how it currently is, while cutting down on how AFK raids is, for being a trills per week money maker. Although I understand the upsetti-ness with some GM players if GM were to be nerfed in their direct loot, having the hard mode to compensate for this would balance that out pretty well in my opinion. But yes, 50% might be a bit too much, we'd have to talk it over and ensure its a good balance and ratio for masters, grandmasters and both of them on hardmode.

 

[metal justin 36]

Just now, Racc2 said:

Oh and forgot one fairly important comment:

Good idea, solid content, but from a practical point of view, especially in spk, this could be so tricky with any amount of lag, either it should hit like 40-50 at most so it never 1hit k0's or you'dd have to see it coming a fair time in advance. I cannot tell you how many times I have been k0's at vork cause of the combo lag+his fireball, Please o please do not let me feel that frustration in raids

It'd have a few seconds of flight time leaving plenty of time to dodge. UNLESS you looking at a youtube video the whole time and not paying attention f.e ;D

[Racc2 24]

1 minute ago, metal justin said:

It'd have a few seconds of flight time leaving plenty of time to dodge. UNLESS you looking at a youtube video the whole time and not paying attention f.e ;D

I watch your vids on the side when raiding, this comment is not good for your views

[metal justin 36]

Just now, Racc2 said:

I watch your vids on the side when raiding, this comment is not good for your views

hahaha. In the end of the day you probally won't be doing hard mode raids the entire day. It'd probally run smoother to have a 2-3 man team atleast to be efficient on these, so you'd be stuck doing other afk things like regular raids, to watch some metal raimon

[king marco 24]

Seems like you put alot of work in this. Interesting suggestions but imo the game doesn't need more content focused around safe pvm. As it is alot of the players complain about lack of pk updates and something like this seems like it would take alot of time. Personally  I think this would only benefit very few players too, you could say that maybe if this update came out then more people would raid so they can strive for these new things, but then that would just take away from people pking which again is already a big problem.

[Morbid 59]

You may kindly fuck off with your pvm updates ain't no one want safe pvm just so you can sit in safe zones making money with absolutely no risk. 

[metal justin 36]

3 hours ago, Morbid said:

You may kindly fuck off with your pvm updates ain't no one want safe pvm just so you can sit in safe zones making money with absolutely no risk. 

you =/= everyone

[metal justin 36]

3 hours ago, king marco said:

Seems like you put alot of work in this. Interesting suggestions but imo the game doesn't need more content focused around safe pvm. As it is alot of the players complain about lack of pk updates and something like this seems like it would take alot of time. Personally  I think this would only benefit very few players too, you could say that maybe if this update came out then more people would raid so they can strive for these new things, but then that would just take away from people pking which again is already a big problem.

I see where you're coming from. Honestly at this point most pvp updates feel either really succesful, or like forced pvm bait. But all together I feel like pking is slowly getting better and better over time for sure. This honestly wouldn't take away from the playerbase or wildy really. Players are already raiding as it is. It could just be a part of an update, add some good PVP shit in the same update, both sides happy. I just don't generally like the "if we cant have it, they shouldn't have it" mentality. It's way better if spawnpk became an overall well rounded game that appealed to as many different players as possible, from the pkers to pvmers, to gamblers and skillers. And I really think this can be achieved in due time, there are a lot of pvp related ideas being thrown around and I know Ryan is working his butt off to see PvP become great again as well

[Lammie 19]

Everything that you do for too long gets stale. You're not supposed to raid 12 hours a day for a week straight (like many of you did). I'd rather see Ryan fixing more important things that are at hand, instead of putting alot of work into making a single piece of content slightly more enjoyable for a select few (GM Raiders).

+1 on the new pet ideas, fat -1 on everything else.

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Lammie

[metal justin 36]

1 hour ago, Lammie said:

Everything that you do for too long gets stale. You're not supposed to raid 12 hours a day for a week straight (like many of you did). I'd rather see Ryan fixing more important things that are at hand, instead of putting alot of work into making a single piece of content slightly more enjoyable for a select few (GM Raiders).

+1 on the new pet ideas, fat -1 on everything else.

 

it's not about just "making it more enjoyable". It's about fixing yet another piece of easy afk content that earns far too much money too. There's always more to do and just because a suggestion exists doesn't mean it should become priority number one. Even if this took another few months to get added that'd still be fine

[Kellatha 629]

10 hours ago, Lammie said:

Everything that you do for too long gets stale. You're not supposed to raid 12 hours a day for a week straight (like many of you did). I'd rather see Ryan fixing more important things that are at hand, instead of putting alot of work into making a single piece of content slightly more enjoyable for a select few (GM Raiders).

+1 on the new pet ideas, fat -1 on everything else.

Focusing on stuff that "could be" "would be" "should be" fixed will put us in an endless cycle of focusing on just solely that, leaving no room for content. This isn't exactly game breaking content, but it's touching up and revamping current content by adding more content to what already exists which isn't as time consuming as adding in something new from scratch.

To simplify it, adding some rares and extra pet effects is much faster than adding a brand new drop table and brand new pet with effects.

All of summer and still recently the majority of updates are QoL which are not my cup of tea but I support them because they make the player base happy. It's been a while since any one update has majorly applied to PvM, specifically donator zones and donator zone content and if the small chance something PvM did go through it was placed in the wilderness which is basically pvp content.

If we can have a few updates for other things that aren't primarily QoL/PvP updates out of the entire year that would be pretty great. It's not so much development time going into these since I have the majority of content mapped out and well thought out but it takes multiple patches because no one thing ever gets released correctly the first time requiring multiple follow up patches to perfect/balance.

[metal justin 36]

4 hours ago, Kellatha said:

Focusing on stuff that "could be" "would be" "should be" fixed will put us in an endless cycle of focusing on just solely that, leaving no room for content. This isn't exactly game breaking content, but it's touching up and revamping current content by adding more content to what already exists which isn't as time consuming as adding in something new from scratch.

To simplify it, adding some rares and extra pet effects is much faster than adding a brand new drop table and brand new pet with effects.

All of summer and still recently the majority of updates are QoL which are not my cup of tea but I support them because they make the player base happy. It's been a while since any one update has majorly applied to PvM, specifically donator zones and donator zone content and if the small chance something PvM did go through it was placed in the wilderness which is basically pvp content.

If we can have a few updates for other things that aren't primarily QoL/PvP updates out of the entire year that would be pretty great. It's not so much development time going into these since I have the majority of content mapped out and well thought out but it takes multiple patches because no one thing ever gets released correctly the first time requiring multiple follow up patches to perfect/balance.

Glad to have someone who gets it

[Lammie 19]

17 hours ago, Kellatha said:

Focusing on stuff that "could be" "would be" "should be" fixed will put us in an endless cycle of focusing on just solely that, leaving no room for content. This isn't exactly game breaking content, but it's touching up and revamping current content by adding more content to what already exists which isn't as time consuming as adding in something new from scratch.

To simplify it, adding some rares and extra pet effects is much faster than adding a brand new drop table and brand new pet with effects.

All of summer and still recently the majority of updates are QoL which are not my cup of tea but I support them because they make the player base happy. It's been a while since any one update has majorly applied to PvM, specifically donator zones and donator zone content and if the small chance something PvM did go through it was placed in the wilderness which is basically pvp content.

If we can have a few updates for other things that aren't primarily QoL/PvP updates out of the entire year that would be pretty great. It's not so much development time going into these since I have the majority of content mapped out and well thought out but it takes multiple patches because no one thing ever gets released correctly the first time requiring multiple follow up patches to perfect/balance.

You can use that ''could be'' ''would be'' ''should be'' argument for anything. You can say it about this suggestion aswell, why should this be prioritized? Saying that there's been too many PvP updates is simply false. Most players have been complaining that there's not enough focus on PvP updates, and I agree. Adding a wilderness boss does not count as PvP content lol.

At the end of the day the server is still named SpawnPK, therefore PvP updates should always have priority over PvM updates (Just like PvM has priority on RuneX). No, I am not saying PvM should be neglected, since a large portion of the playerbase enjoys it. What I'm saying is that there are alot of easy PvP fixes that are constantly being postponed for unnecessary suggestions like these, which should not happen.

But I guess we will never find common ground on this because it boils down to a Pkers vs Pvmers discussion which I am not interested in and is unproductive.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Lammie

[metal justin 36]

On 10/30/2019 at 8:41 PM, metal justin said:

it's not about just "making it more enjoyable". It's about fixing yet another piece of easy afk content that earns far too much money too. There's always more to do and just because a suggestion exists doesn't mean it should become priority number one. Even if this took another few months to get added that'd still be fine

 

1 hour ago, Lammie said:

You can say it about this suggestion aswell, why should this be prioritized?

.....

[Racc2 24]

Just an idea but what if, in the suggestion topic, we just focused on constructive feedback on the idea. Additionally you are of course free to comment whether this addition/update is something you look forward too, or if you have reservations about it's impact. 

But I think this endless cycle of discussing priorities, comparing against other content, just dishing any content you don't actively enjoy get's us nowhere, just makes a suggestion topic a pain to read and just makes the discussion go completely off topic very fast. 
As such i think an update topic should be a place to refine an idea, polish it up using the feedback and experience of our community and not a place to vent frustrations about the game, which I think does need a place, and are valid concerns which need to be payed attention too, but is not something that should be in this or other suggestions.

To make sure I'm not misunderstood, in my personal opinion following are examples of constructive feedback:

• I like the idea and would love to see it implemented
• There are some good idea's in there, have you considered X or I'dd love to see Y worked out in some more detail
• In it's current form I don't think it detailed enough for me to support it, could you elaborate on X?
• As someone who often partakes in similar content I can say that in my experience this will not work due to reason Z

Examples of non constructive comments could be:

• Hell no please focus on other content, already to much attention goes to XX... [just because you don't enjoy a piece of content doesn't mean it has no place in spk]
• why should this be prioritized? [this and all others are just suggestions, priorities are determined by the staff and dev team, imo this section should just provide idea's polished by community input, dev team can then look over them and look for content that fit's in their priority list]
• any pvp vs pvm vs donor discussions unless the suggestion is explicitly about balancing those [We all enjoy different aspects of the game and some have more extreme opinions on what it should be than others, but that should not invalidate a good suggestion regardless of what content it belongs too.]
• [Any unsubstantiated negativity, if you prefer different content, no problem, try noting some of you idea's and make a suggestion about that, but commenting on potential content you don't use/enjoy just cause you want focus on your preferred content if not useful feedback for a specific suggestion and imo should go elsewhere]

I could elaborate and if needed I will but I already know hm backlash i will get so ;D

To be clear: this is just my opinion and a general suggestion on how I believe suggestion topics could be more productive (which I think is going to be needed if we ever want to come to good community suggestions/input)

Love it, hate it, fuck it

Racc2 out