Weapons being unbalanced & gear having almost no use

[metal justin 36]

So today I really wanted to adress a reocurring issue when it comes to in particular: max hits.

What I mean with the title is that, although some gears have very good purposes in context of accuraccy or better defense (undeniably justiciar will make you tankier than cursed obsidian), when it 

comes to max hits everything feels kind of the same.

Why go from spawnables to vesta if your ags can hit an 80 max in both scenarios?

This goes for a lot of special attack weapons as well. Most of them don't need a gear upgrade, or atleast a very minimal one, to reach their cap.

Statius warhammer can hit a 75 both in dharoks and in max strength. So why bother?

Why is this an issue:

To me this issue became even more apparent with the release of the new cudgel weapon. I think most players here would agree that it's... kinda trash.

Let's compare it to the statius warhammer for a second. I feel like this is a good comparison due to them both being crush weapons as well.

The cudgel consumes 75% of your special attack bar. It ignores 50% of the enemies crush defense and hits twice, the 2nd hit being half of the first.

As far as I could tell, even if I switched gears, the max hit was a 50-25. Maybe someone got higher with a piece of equipment that raises the max hit cap but it's not all that huge.

It's not the most accurate of em either.

Now let's see the statius warhammer.

It consumes only 35% of the spec bar. less than half of the cudgel, and with a vigour you can even spec 4 times. The max hit is a 75, the same as a cudgel except in 1 single hit (more impossible to outeat)

On top of that it also lowers the opponents defense heavily based on your hit. An extremely strong ability that makes the opponent either weak for a minute or occupied with repotting for a second.

The weapon itself is extremely accurate and often hits well too, no matter your gear.

 

Even simpler would be to say: the ags is only 200mil yet hits 80's at 50% spec. Then again it's a 2h weapon so that has it's cost as well (dfs spec).

 

The biggest issue that gear feels kinda purposeless when it comes to getting higher hits, which is a strong contrast to other RSPS' or even OSRS, where you often buy gear specificaly because it grants you that higher hit. It's the reason that every new weapon we see and old weapon to get retouched, sees a max hit cap because they'd hit insanely hard without them and some would probally hit 99s in certain gears.

 

What I'd like to suggest is just to find a better solution to this problem. Instead of just giving weapons max hit caps (which is still good) make them harder to reach in the first place!

Full spawnable gear with ags vs vesta, torture, primordial, a good ring, infernal cape etc should undoubtedly see a difference in max hit. AGS should only hit something around a 70 in spawnables vs an 80 in such strong gear. The max hit cap doesn't change, but the effort to get to that cap does.

 

To counter act the usage of these weapons in pvm, because I don't feel like this whole thing matters in that scenario (no max hit caps anyway), maybe the overall strength bonus of weapons could be lowered inside the wilderness/pvp scenarios? That way the actual strength bonus of your gear starts taking a bigger role instantly!

Perhaps there could be more useful ways to do this. I don't know. But I'd love to see a discussion start about this down below!

 

- Metal Raimon

Edited August 8, 2019 by metal justin

[Salty 51]

I see where you're coming especially with the new weapon being kinda mediocre but I think that not every new item needs to be OP or the new meta some items and content can be added just for the sake of content and to call it dead content is silly as there are more people doing blood slayer than I've almost ever seen. Yesterday I went to demonic gorillas and literally there were so many people there, not everyone got a gorilla!  It was actually supper cool to see and I wish I took a screen shot, I asked them what they were up to and if they had any luck at least 4 ppl told me they were hunting the new keys. 

with the gear/max hit issue once again I see where you're coming from but a change like this would almost have to affect pvm as well as hits would be more gear based and less just weapon based would be an all around code (at least i assume). I wanna say personally I think if the game was more gear dependent all around, that would be cool and having better gear would probably feel more rewarding. But it's important to remember what we are playing, this is a private server many people come to this game and just wanna have good shit quick and hit high because honestly that is the point of a spawn based server. I know that as a veteran player it sucks when happen to die to someone in spawns who hits that crazy 76 ags but that's the point of the game! (at least imo) 

I think you have a very interesting idea with more weapons having secondary and more unique effects, though I can see where it would be really tough to balance item's like these. Also I can see some the community being rather upset if too many more "op custom" items are added to the game. 

[Big Pee pee 12]

No support. Blame the nerfs instead of penalising newer players who can’t afford gear. Defence and accuracy is the big bonus with high tier gear, not max hits. Otherwise theres no way for newer players to kill maxed ones

[metal justin 36]

16 hours ago, saltysadface said:

I see where you're coming especially with the new weapon being kinda mediocre but I think that not every new item needs to be OP or the new meta some items and content can be added just for the sake of content and to call it dead content is silly as there are more people doing blood slayer than I've almost ever seen. Yesterday I went to demonic gorillas and literally there were so many people there, not everyone got a gorilla!  It was actually supper cool to see and I wish I took a screen shot, I asked them what they were up to and if they had any luck at least 4 ppl told me they were hunting the new keys. 

with the gear/max hit issue once again I see where you're coming from but a change like this would almost have to affect pvm as well as hits would be more gear based and less just weapon based would be an all around code (at least i assume). I wanna say personally I think if the game was more gear dependent all around, that would be cool and having better gear would probably feel more rewarding. But it's important to remember what we are playing, this is a private server many people come to this game and just wanna have good shit quick and hit high because honestly that is the point of a spawn based server. I know that as a veteran player it sucks when happen to die to someone in spawns who hits that crazy 76 ags but that's the point of the game! (at least imo) 

I think you have a very interesting idea with more weapons having secondary and more unique effects, though I can see where it would be really tough to balance item's like these. Also I can see some the community being rather upset if too many more "op custom" items are added to the game. 

you saying more "op custom" items gives me the idea you didn't even read the post at all

My point is NOT to add more weapons that are overpowered, rather adding unique uses for them to make them useful in certain scenarios. What you're saying is literally what the game is right now. Weapons have to be OP to be relevant and even when it comes to pvming you either get a tbow, a scythe or a skotizo weapon. When it comes to dps thats all you ever will need, maybe the swh/dwh for lowering def. 

What if their was a weapon special attack that reduces the opponents accuraccy for an X amount of time or hits. What if you could penetrate defenses for an amount of time/hits. What if you could use a special attack weapon to in turn higher ur max hits by +2. It's about thinking outside the box on how things can be relevant without being dominating.

Quote

I know that as a veteran player it sucks when happen to die to someone in spawns who hits that crazy 76 ags but that's the point of the game! (at least imo)

No it's not. There is absolutely no logic in starting off strong only to become weaker as you upgrade. Theres 0 logic in that. Logic is saying hey you're in full spawnables, so your max hit with ags will be about a 75, and hey you're in vestas, torture, primordials etc, so your max hit will be an 80. A reduction like this, while i did mention it in the post as something that may want to be avoided, doesn't even effect pvming all that much. Ofcourse pvming in spawnables will give slower kill rates and lower hits than using good gear.

Quote

I asked them what they were up to and if they had any luck at least 4 ppl told me they were hunting the new keys.

 

new keys are fun new content, give decent extra loots. Its a great starter money maker.

No 1 is actively hunting the instantly dropping to a low price sudgal....

Edited August 9, 2019 by metal justin

[metal justin 36]

10 hours ago, Big Pee pee said:

No support. Blame the nerfs instead of penalising newer players who can’t afford gear. Defence and accuracy is the big bonus with high tier gear, not max hits. Otherwise theres no way for newer players to kill maxed ones

ridiculous statement but i see where you're coming from. As it is right now, whether im in spawnables or max str, give me a statius warhammer and i won't have an issue killing someone in maxed main. I've dropped people with divine's risking bills in shit gear. It's completely unbalanced. 

And accuraccy and defense isn't even giving by that many gear options right now as it is. Unless you're comparing spawnables vs justiciar or tektonic, you won't see much of a change. 

 

A max hit should be something to strive for, not something you can achieve from the get-go. Gear upgrades should matter more overall, because they really don't at the moment. 

Would you risk a torture over a fury if it didn't give any extra max hit damage? I doubt it. Only reason everyone uses tortures/anguish/occults etc is because you don't lose em in the first place, and the same goes with a lot of other untradables. We use them because the cost is relatively low for an okay increase in just accuraccy. Atleast with cursed obsidian you could argue it gives bonus towards obsidian items and has a smite effect, compensating for it's low defense. And all with all I'd like it if things were more unique in the first place, instead of tons of dead content.

Think about blood serp for example.... 100mil bounties worth of trash

[Ryan 315]

Quote

Why go from spawnables to vesta if your ags can hit an 80 max in both scenarios?

This goes for a lot of special attack weapons as well. Most of them don't need a gear upgrade, or atleast a very minimal one, to reach their cap.

Just clear this up, there is actually still a benefit in wearing max gear after reaching damage cap.

The reason is that it will increase your hit frequency and chance to hit at or near damage cap.

The formula breakdown
Damage is always calculated as an RNG roll just like traditional RS. First accuracy/defense is calculated to determine if the hit is a "block" (0). If not, it will roll damage between 0 and your max hit before damage caps.

If your (pre-cap) max hit is a 104 with an AGS because you have max gear, it will roll between 0 and 104. If it rolls above the cap (~80) it will then apply the damage to be at or close to the cap. As a result of this, your likelihood of big hits is mathematically higher.

If you as a player are not actually feeling this in effect, I may need to run some tests and ensure that it's working as intended.

Quote

The cudgel consumes 75% of your special attack bar. It ignores 50% of the enemies crush defense and hits twice, the 2nd hit being half of the first.

As far as I could tell, even if I switched gears, the max hit was a 50-25. Maybe someone got higher with a piece of equipment that raises the max hit cap but it's not all that huge.

It's not the most accurate of em either.

Now let's see the statius warhammer.

It consumes only 35% of the spec bar. less than half of the cudgel, and with a vigour you can even spec 4 times. The max hit is a 75, the same as a cudgel except in 1 single hit (more impossible to outeat)

On top of that it also lowers the opponents defense heavily based on your hit. An extremely strong ability that makes the opponent either weak for a minute or occupied with repotting for a second.

The weapon itself is extremely accurate and often hits well too, no matter your gear.

This is a fair point, and we came to a similar conclusion post-release for cudgel.

The weapon isn't intended to be at or even close to BiS (it's a tier 70) but given the rarity and effort to obtain it, it should at the very least have some additional perks/benefits/niche to justify the value. We already have plans in mind for it, so stay tuned!

[metal justin 36]

39 minutes ago, Ryan said:

Just clear this up, there is actually still a benefit in wearing max gear after reaching damage cap.

The reason is that it will increase your hit frequency and chance to hit at or near damage cap.

The formula breakdown
Damage is always calculated as an RNG roll just like traditional RS. First accuracy/defense is calculated to determine if the hit is a "block" (0). If not, it will roll damage between 0 and your max hit before damage caps.

If your (pre-cap) max hit is a 104 with an AGS because you have max gear, it will roll between 0 and 104. If it rolls above the cap (~80) it will then apply the damage to be at or close to the cap. As a result of this, your likelihood of big hits is mathematically higher.

If you as a player are not actually feeling this in effect, I may need to run some tests and ensure that it's working as intended.

This is a fair point, and we came to a similar conclusion post-release for cudgel.

The weapon isn't intended to be at or even close to BiS (it's a tier 70) but given the rarity and effort to obtain it, it should at the very least have some additional perks/benefits/niche to justify the value. We already have plans in mind for it, so stay tuned!

Sound solid over all. To just give a bit more indepth on the formula and such:

I do get the idea here. you will hit more 80s than someone in lower gear, and i do see that go into effect, i really do. I just miss the feeling of "needing" such an upgrade. To contrast this or perhaps explain it a bit better: What i love about small osrs releases is the hype the players can get from it. A small example would be the clue scroll update in which those new 1 def boots were released. They had like an ever so slight strength bonus in comparison to climbing boots, but apparently enough for some zerkers to hit a 1-1 dds on top of their dragon dagger specs and it was huge to them. That's kind of what im missing. Yes, acuraccy is nice, but it's kind of a shame to see all the weapons having the same type of caps no matter what they use. on top of that most of the special attack options don't feel very viable anymore due to their caps. Why use an elemental dagger thats worth 6-9b when the max damage you can do is lower than a 200m ags, a 1bil stat hammer, 1.5bclaws etc etc.

However if you were to compare it to a korasi it makes sense: yes the korasi will not have the highest of max hits; however it hits through melee pray. theres ur "worth using" it. 

So yeah, i agree gear does have a purpose when it comes to both defense and accuraccy, i just think its a tad unexciting that weapons have such similiar max hits. 

> you might be in spawnables and not hit often, but im still going to eat above 80 because somehow you still hit that with ur ags.

That's the type of feeling I get from it. Needing to safe a lot in fights not because they will hit high, but just because they can. And if gear had a bit more of a say in this, then atleast you could start predicting when to eat or not eat against who and who not to safe against. It'd just bring a lot more variety to the table.

on top of that, it'd also open other doors. For example: in spawnables you might not be able to hit the 80 ags cap HOWEVER, if you get a lets say dragon hunter lance you'll still be able to spec high due to how expensive and strong the weapon itself is.

[Jimm0 27]

I agree, it would be nice for max hit caps to not exist, but at the same time I don’t want people in max hitting 100s with an ags (or with anything else for that matter)

[Ian 25]

7 hours ago, Jimm0 said:

I agree, it would be nice for max hit caps to not exist, but at the same time I don’t want people in max hitting 100s with an ags (or with anything else for that matter)

Yeah instead they can hit 100s in dharoks @35 hp

[Jimm0 27]

Just now, Ian said:

Yeah instead they can hit 100s in dharoks @35 hp

Yeah that shouldn’t exist 

[Glorified 8]

On 8/9/2019 at 11:34 AM, metal justin said:

you might be in spawnables and not hit often, but im still going to eat above 80 because somehow you still hit that with ur ags.

That's the type of feeling I get from it. Needing to safe a lot in fights not because they will hit high, but just because they can. And if gear had a bit more of a say in this, then atleast you could start predicting when to eat or not eat against who and who not to safe against. It'd just bring a lot more variety to the table.

100% True. This is what edge pking is all about right now and has been for a few years. I could understand how the gear upgrades and downgrades would definitely benefit the edgeville pk scene if this were implemented. Sounds a bit complicated to do, but I'm sure it would be amazing to have an update like this, or atleast test it out for a few weeks. @Ryan

[Glorified 8]

On 8/12/2019 at 2:46 PM, Ian said:

Yeah instead they can hit 100s in dharoks @35 hp

Yeah this is retarded. I went to edge other day to test out full tektonic with mini me effect and guardian boots. I got rocked with a 90+ 3 times in a row and the third time I was skulled and didn't even realize the protection value of guardian boots was so high. I managed to get my death pet out before my head touched the ground and kept my tektonic platebody and gaurdian boots. Lost tektonic platelegs and 30b in misc. to a completely random nubby in dh who was just prodding his axe. 

[Ian 25]

1 minute ago, Glorified said:

Yeah this is retarded. I went to edge other day to test out full tektonic with mini me effect and guardian boots. I got rocked with a 90+ 3 times in a row and the third time I was skulled and didn't even realize the protection value of guardian boots was so high. I managed to get my death pet out before my head touched the ground and kept my tektonic platebody and gaurdian boots. Lost tektonic platelegs and 30b in misc. to a completely random nubby in dh who was just prodding his axe. 

at least they patched rock cake, DH still needs a nerf tho

[metal justin 36]

On 8/12/2019 at 2:33 PM, Jimm0 said:

I agree, it would be nice for max hit caps to not exist, but at the same time I don’t want people in max hitting 100s with an ags (or with anything else for that matter)

im not saying to remove max hit caps though. The idea would be that u need adiquite gear to reach the cap.

So welfare ags would be like around a 73 max but in vesta prims torture etc u could get to that 80 cap, and gear even better than that will just boost accuraccy so to say.

[Jimm0 27]

2 hours ago, metal justin said:

im not saying to remove max hit caps though. The idea would be that u need adiquite gear to reach the cap.

So welfare ags would be like around a 73 max but in vesta prims torture etc u could get to that 80 cap, and gear even better than that will just boost accuraccy so to say.

Yes, I get what you mean. I agree, this would be a good suggestion. However, to do this you'd need to change the strength bonuses of lots of weapons I'd imagine - AGS couldn't remain at 132 like we're used to. On OSRS a player in our 'spawnable' gear would be able to hit 80 too.

How could we do this without making new players totally unequipped for pking?

[metal justin 36]

3 minutes ago, Jimm0 said:

Yes, I get what you mean. I agree, this would be a good suggestion. However, to do this you'd need to change the strength bonuses of lots of weapons I'd imagine - AGS couldn't remain at 132 like we're used to. On OSRS a player in our 'spawnable' gear would be able to hit 80 too.

How could we do this without making new players totally unequipped for pking?

honestly I don't believe making newer players slightly less strong will have that much of an impact. As it stand even with their ability to hit high, if you're up against me with my tektonic zbow dclaws (or) you're 99% sure to die anyway. Whether your cap is an 80 or a 73. It'll just feel more balanced overall towards everyone. As far as I can see most new players don't pk in the first place but rather go to pvm and stuff like that.

On the other hand it would just make OTHER weapons more viable. At this point players can literally vote for 2bil+ in straight cash which is enough to buy a statius warhammer or a VLS, so they'd already have a head start anyway. I do believe some higher end weapons should be buffed when it comes to max hits anyway (example blessed sara sword or elemental dagger have a WAY lower max hit cap than the stat hammer or ags which are so much cheaper in the first place). 

All with all making other weapons more viable through the upgrades of gear and things like that would just be a good starting point.

And with this you're going to start making concious choices between a torso and a torags platebody, between bandos tassets and other tank legs. It'll over all influence the game a lot more, and its not like these gear upgrades are out of reach anyway.

[Jimm0 27]

2 minutes ago, metal justin said:

honestly I don't believe making newer players slightly less strong will have that much of an impact. As it stand even with their ability to hit high, if you're up against me with my tektonic zbow dclaws (or) you're 99% sure to die anyway. Whether your cap is an 80 or a 73. It'll just feel more balanced overall towards everyone. As far as I can see most new players don't pk in the first place but rather go to pvm and stuff like that.

On the other hand it would just make OTHER weapons more viable. At this point players can literally vote for 2bil+ in straight cash which is enough to buy a statius warhammer or a VLS, so they'd already have a head start anyway. I do believe some higher end weapons should be buffed when it comes to max hits anyway (example blessed sara sword or elemental dagger have a WAY lower max hit cap than the stat hammer or ags which are so much cheaper in the first place). 

All with all making other weapons more viable through the upgrades of gear and things like that would just be a good starting point.

And with this you're going to start making concious choices between a torso and a torags platebody, between bandos tassets and other tank legs. It'll over all influence the game a lot more, and its not like these gear upgrades are out of reach anyway.

I definitely agree with getting rid of the max hits. I would much prefer my max hits to be based off my gear than capped at some arbitrary number. 

It's often pointless making a gear upgrade from bandos to cursed obsidian when your max hits aren't affected

[metal justin 36]

3 minutes ago, Jimm0 said:

I definitely agree with getting rid of the max hits. I would much prefer my max hits to be based off my gear than capped at some arbitrary number. 

It's often pointless making a gear upgrade from bandos to cursed obsidian when your max hits aren't affected

Ye it should definitely help even if slightly, but the point is that weapons would still be max capped. But i'm talking about an upgrade from lets say vesta, str ammy etc to like tektonic/torva with torture and enchanted boots/gloves, infernal cape etc.

Like the AGS should still not be able to cross that 80 mark, but going from bandos to gear that has +4 str more than what you were previously wearing should make that ags go from a 75 to a 77. 

Just a small example I don't know the EXACT numbers of str bonus:damage but you get the idea

[Steve Unit 4]

On ‎8‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 5:12 AM, metal justin said:

So today I really wanted to adress a reocurring issue when it comes to in particular: max hits.

What I mean with the title is that, although some gears have very good purposes in context of accuraccy or better defense (undeniably justiciar will make you tankier than cursed obsidian), when it 

comes to max hits everything feels kind of the same.

Why go from spawnables to vesta if your ags can hit an 80 max in both scenarios?

This goes for a lot of special attack weapons as well. Most of them don't need a gear upgrade, or atleast a very minimal one, to reach their cap.

Statius warhammer can hit a 75 both in dharoks and in max strength. So why bother?

Why is this an issue:

To me this issue became even more apparent with the release of the new cudgel weapon. I think most players here would agree that it's... kinda trash.

Let's compare it to the statius warhammer for a second. I feel like this is a good comparison due to them both being crush weapons as well.

The cudgel consumes 75% of your special attack bar. It ignores 50% of the enemies crush defense and hits twice, the 2nd hit being half of the first.

As far as I could tell, even if I switched gears, the max hit was a 50-25. Maybe someone got higher with a piece of equipment that raises the max hit cap but it's not all that huge.

It's not the most accurate of em either.

Now let's see the statius warhammer.

It consumes only 35% of the spec bar. less than half of the cudgel, and with a vigour you can even spec 4 times. The max hit is a 75, the same as a cudgel except in 1 single hit (more impossible to outeat)

On top of that it also lowers the opponents defense heavily based on your hit. An extremely strong ability that makes the opponent either weak for a minute or occupied with repotting for a second.

The weapon itself is extremely accurate and often hits well too, no matter your gear.

 

Even simpler would be to say: the ags is only 200mil yet hits 80's at 50% spec. Then again it's a 2h weapon so that has it's cost as well (dfs spec).

 

The biggest issue that gear feels kinda purposeless when it comes to getting higher hits, which is a strong contrast to other RSPS' or even OSRS, where you often buy gear specificaly because it grants you that higher hit. It's the reason that every new weapon we see and old weapon to get retouched, sees a max hit cap because they'd hit insanely hard without them and some would probally hit 99s in certain gears.

 

What I'd like to suggest is just to find a better solution to this problem. Instead of just giving weapons max hit caps (which is still good) make them harder to reach in the first place!

Full spawnable gear with ags vs vesta, torture, primordial, a good ring, infernal cape etc should undoubtedly see a difference in max hit. AGS should only hit something around a 70 in spawnables vs an 80 in such strong gear. The max hit cap doesn't change, but the effort to get to that cap does.

 

To counter act the usage of these weapons in pvm, because I don't feel like this whole thing matters in that scenario (no max hit caps anyway), maybe the overall strength bonus of weapons could be lowered inside the wilderness/pvp scenarios? That way the actual strength bonus of your gear starts taking a bigger role instantly!

Perhaps there could be more useful ways to do this. I don't know. But I'd love to see a discussion start about this down below!

 

- Metal Raimon

phenomenon has single handedly ruined all special attack weapons already as is. there are so many weapons right now with great potential but have been fucked up by "NERF"ing that they're shelfed. such as the elemental staff, hasn't been used in over a year in pvp due to the complete shit that was taken on it. Don't bitch about ags cause you died to an ags its most definitely not the best special attack weapon out there atm. It's accuracy is already shot to hell. that being said they also nerfed all the good pvp GEAR as well. take a look at Cursed Void, no 1 uses it nor wants it anymore after they destroyed the mage defense and made it cost money to reapir after death even though it costs almost 100b a PIECE and now it still costs you money. Vestas was fucked with too and the most recent update they nerfed dharoks as well.